What will downtown Fort Wayne be like in 5-10 years?
Monday, March 26, 2007
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Suggested Reading
- 2006 Downtown Housing Potential Study (PDF)
- Allen County/Fort Wayne Comprehensive Land Use & Development Plan (PDF)
- Around the Square Presentation (PDF)
- Around the Square Sub-Area Plan
- BaseballPLUS Committee Report (PDF)
- Blueprint Plus Final Report (PDF)
- City of Fort Wayne Press Release on 'Harrison Square' development
- Downtown CReED Map (PDF)
- Downtown Design Guidelines (PDF)
- Downtown Hotel Study 2005 (PDF)
- Downtown Parking Map (PDF)
- Economic and Fiscal Impacts of the Proposed Harrison Square Project
- Exhibit for Condo and Retail (PDF)
- Exhibit for Hotel (PDF)
- Exhibit for Stadium License Agreement (PDF)
- Harrison Square Brochure
- Harrison Square Condo/Retail Agreement (PDF)
- Harrison Square Financial Data (PDF)
- Harrison Square Frequently Asked Questions
- Harrison Square Funding Relationships (PDF)
- Harrison Square Hotel Agreement (PDF)
- Harrison Square Stadium License Agreement (PDF)
- Harrison Square Stadium Management Agreement (PDF)
- Harrison Street Infill Strategy - Market Study (PDF)
- North River Final Report (PDF)
- Parking Management Report - Executive Summary (PDF)
- Urban Renewal / Economic Development Areas Map (PDF)
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25 comments:
Well, it's hard to imagine it getting worse (unless, of course, HS doesn't happen), so I'm betting it'll be... better?
I don't know, is that a cop out? I'll think on it, and try to post again.
Let me use some images to help my argument. I ask that you please click the links to understand my point.
Downtown Ft Wayne in 5- 10 years if....
Harrison Square DOES happen
Harrison Square DOES NOT happen
Adam W
@Adam: I get your point, but those trees look older than 5-10 years!
hahahahah. i must say that u have me there scott. nice catch. haha
Adam
oh, and the nice looking downtown picture is from Greenville where a project very similar to ours was put into place (in case you were wondering)
Adam
While your point is a simple one, I couldn't agree more. With HS downtown will be much better in 5-10 years. If it doesn't happen, well, I guess I won't be shocked, and it will be business as usual in Fort Wayne.
I'm hoping relocate back to Fort Wayne eventually and would love for downtown to thrive so I'll have the option to live there.
Adam-
Here are some differences between the Greenville project and Harrison Square.
1. The Greenville ballpark, which opened in April, 2006, cost 15 million to build, excluding land cost. Our ballpark has an estimated construction cost of 30 million, exccluding land.
2. The owners of the Greenville Drive paid 100% of the construction cost. The City paid nothing. Hardball Capital is paying 17% of the construction cost of our stadium (5 million). Fort Wayne is paying 83% of the construction cost (25 million)/
3. The City of Greenville provided land valued at $4 million/ Fort Wayne is providing land, site prep and infrastructure of $7-10 million (est.)
If Harrison Square was "very similar" to the Greenville project, I would support it wholeheartedly.
Mark Garvin
Mark,
I give you props for pointing out the financial figures....and I must admit that I knew somone like you (thats a compliment) would. I had realized the numbers were different, but I guess was looking at more of the concept of the project.
There is another project that I would like for you to compare...Greensboro. Financially, this is a closer set up to Harrison Square than Fort Wayne. I don't have the numbers off the top of my head, but recently I read background on their project (along with Greenville's and others such as Dayton, Toledo, Oklahoma City etc) and Greensboro struck me as being an extremely similar situation.
Did you rip those figures straight from memory? If so, I must admit, I am impressed.
Adam
Adam,
No, the kind gentlemen at DFWB provide a link to the BaseballPlus report, which has the numbers. You may be thinking of Dayton as being more comparable to Fort Wayne, as the team owner contribution was only around 30%, as I recall. Greensboro was also 100% owner or private financing, as I recall.
Mark Garvin
It's ironic to read discussion about other cities success with downtown ballparks. A few days ago, I spoke to a former NE Indiana friend who now lives in Greenville, SC. It was interesting to hear her comparisons between Greenville and Fort Wayne. She raved about the downtown atmosphere that Greenville has, and the lack of vitality that downtown Fort Wayne currently experiences. She stated she has no plans on moving back to the area. By the way she is NE Indiana raised, college educated from IU Bloomington, and her parents now are considering moving to Greenville. Here are a few excepts from the city of Greenville’s website:
"In recent years, Downtown Greenville has also developed into a dining/entertainment destination. With over sixty restaurants and pubs centered around Main Street, Greenville's Downtown offers the greatest concentration of dining options in the entire Upstate area."
"Greenville is the cultural and entertainment center for the Upstate, including an award winning downtown, a major performing arts center, a 17,000 seat arena, a 368,000 square foot exhibition center, nationally recognized museum collections, and 39 parks, playgrounds and recreation centers."
http://www.greatergreenville.com/
Dayton, like Grand Rapids, has a highway running right through the middle of downtown. The status quo militia said no to that.
Shree
so Mark are you saying Fort Wayne should settle again, and go for an 'adequate' ballpark?
change fort wayne-
No, to the contrary. I think Fort Wayne has an unfortunate history (at least in the 20 years I have been here) of too often embracing "half-assed" projects. Science Central, Old Fort, tiny ice rink at Headwaters Park, etc. These things are sort of "nice" to have, but not a reason to visit or move here. Some notable exceptions include the County Courthouse renovation, system-wide library expansion and Fort Wayne zoo.
Now I tend to think that single A baseball is, itself, a half-assed participation in a dying sport, but reasonable people can differ. If we do a stadium, I think it ought to be first-rate, so long as it makes some economic sense, or presents a reasonable risk. The Hardball participation is way below the standard according to my research and is second only to Gary, Indiana in a giveaway by a City.
If Hardball was putting in 50%, I'd be a big supporter of the project. I'm still open to $10 million or more to upgrade the current stadium (plus reasonable owner contribution), and using the money saved to support another project, but one that doesn't require 85% subsidy by the taxpayers.
Mark Garvin
Mark,
I know you don't like the financing, but HOK's involvement in the design of the ballpark ensures that this will not be a half-assed facility like Memorial Stadium.
Also, Wizards attendance has consecutively increased for six years, so I don't see that as an indication that baseball is dying in Fort Wayne.
Scott-
Somebody needs to pin down definitive attendance figures. The Coliseum management relayed that their "turnstyle" numbers for 2006 showed just over 150,000 in attendance, which is obviously different than tickets sold or given away. The difference is important for the secondary economic effects.
All my research indicates that the present wisdom concerning the "secret" to successful minor league baseball is selling "Family Fun" separate from the baseball. Having NASCAR drivers and Rap singers play an inning doesn't sound exciting to me, but I guess it fills seats.
Although the numbers will always be the stumbling block, I will shed no tears if we find a project that brings adults down town, not parents entertaining eight year-olds with carnival games and playgrounds between innings.
Mark Garvin
Mark -
you're the first person I've ever heard say baseball is a dying sport.
I'd say we need to worry about what we are going to do with the coliseum if our hockey league folds (see today's paper), more than if 'America's Pastime' dies out.
I agree with you that we do things half assed, due to people worrying about higher standard of living equals more expensive.
I'd say its more than a $10M problem to try to save our dinosaur in the middle of a asphalt field.
By chance, do you know what the percentage of contribution of the previous owners made towards memorial stadium?
I hope whatever the future holds for the Wizards includes all the businessmen making the decisions keeping in mind one thing. Two of the biggest groups that regularly attend Wizards games at "The Castle" throughout the season are school children through the reading programs in the area and physically handicapped people from nursing homes and group homes as well as MANY elderly. Do you really think those groups will attend games in congested, innaccessible downtown Fort Wayne especially at night if they have to walk very far at all? I don't, and I'm sure I'm not alone. Just visit the Lansing Lugnuts stadium in downtown Lansing, MI to understand what I am talking about. It's big and nice and virtually EMPTY much of the time.
Let me, then, be the second person to say that baseball is a dying sport. If you don't know that, I don't know what planet you've been living on for the last 20 years.
Shree
Change,
I don't believe the prior owners contributed anything ot at least nothing of note. I don't know what a good estimate for upgrades to memorial stadium is. Baseball Plus report said "as much as 5 million" but they didn't claim to study it closely. Hardball Capital has said 8-12 million, but Freier acknowledged they also have not yet looked at the issue closely. I'm open to considering whatever it may be on the merits.
I'm no expert on the future of baseball. I've been to Wizards games. The crowd doesn't strike me as the group I would turn to to build an exciting, vibrant downtown. Looks more like homeschoolers and inner city kids being "entertained" with scrip tickets. Is that where all you young turks hang out?
Gotta go. Heading to the meeting.
Mark Garvin
Mark -
Thanks for the bigoted remarks, its become evident why you're against moving the stadium downtown. Hopefully the completely ignored you at the meeting.
Shree -
Good luck with the next US sport frenzy - soccer.
Oh -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Memorial_Stadium_(Fort_Wayne)
OH also the percentage that you were looking for, the percentage of contribution of the previous owners made towards memorial stadium, is Zero.
to all the naysayers......i recently moved here. your city sucks.....there is no downtown at all .....right now any investment would be good i dont care if they are building a sumo wrestling stadium.
the thing is.....the people who say no to this are not the educated people. they are the vocal and very uneducated people. If you ask any person with a degree from a real university or college what they think of the harrison sq project they are all giving the go ahead, why? because they understand that it is not a baseball stadium that is going to spur economic development. It is the and stay with "URBAN FABRIC" Yes that is right, the URBAN FABRIC. Go wikipedia that if you dont know what it is, but after you know what that is you will begin to see this isnt a discussion about building a baseball stadium.
Ben obviously has a master's degree in English.
Shree
From a "real" university- that would prefer to remain nameless.
Adam,
Do I see Garvin and Sylvester in the background of the second picture?
Fred J.
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